Vacation Rental Listing Sites: Do You Need Them And Are They Worth It?

Nowadays there seems no way around listing your vacation rental on one or more of the Behemoth Vacation Rental Listing Sites like Airbnb, Booking and Homeaway. Can you still make a decent turnover without extreme dependance on these OTAs (Online Travel Agencies) and how?

You can still make your vacation rental extremely profitable without selling your independence. In this video Robin Coenen, the CMO of Club Villamar discussed the why and how with Simon Lehmann from AJL Consulting.

Club Villamar rents out over 3500 villas with private pool along the coast in Spain and generates 90% of their bookings directly (own marketing and own website), without the help from OTAs.

You will find the transcript underneath the video. Enjoy!

Simon: Hey, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the next session of AJL profitability hub 2020. Our next session is talking about ´Building resiliency with direct bookings´. It's a great pleasure today to have Robin Coenen, the CMO and shareholder of Club Villamar in Spain, with us on the conference. And I will immediately ask Robin, please use some time to introduce yourself and tell us where you're at and what you're doing in these challenging times.

The History Of Club Villamar

Robin: First of all, Simon, thank you very much for inviting us to call. And first a bit of history. It started about 20 years ago when a group of friends and I, we went on holiday to the Costa Brava to Spain. It's a lovely area, beautiful beaches. The rugged coast, it's called. And we went there on holiday and we spent time on the beach and we actually slept in a house, a villa with a private pool. That was of one of the friends of ours. So we were spending our days at the beach and doing all kind of beach activities and going water. And then in the evening, we went to the house and had a barbecue there. We stood there. Amazing sea view. You just get the picture. And we said, OK, this is the life. More people should be doing this.

Our First Vacation Rental Experience

So we thought about renting out the house of this friend of ours. And we started with a lovely Dutch company. And of course, like any entrepreneur and we're a group of friends, entrepreneurs, we said STOP. We can do this better. But I have to remind you that was about 16, 17 years ago. So it was the early Internet days. So you also made your own websites. Basically, you do anything, everything yourself. So we started renting out his house through our own platform.

Villa on the Spanish Costa Brava

Gaining Momentum

And then all of the sudden we had friends that said: hey, you also want to rent out my house? And then we had friends or friends. And all of a sudden it grew into a company and really big. Those first years, we did everything ourselves. So the building of the website, well, not the actual coding, but the marketing. Signing the owners, getting the contract and making sure that we have bookings, when people arrive, make sure the houses are OK. Changing the gas bottles, everything. Everything. We did everything ourselves, which gave us a huge advantage. Because now, where we are now, we've learned so much from what we've done in the past years. From the early days, as we understand every part of our company. We understand what's happening there.

Fast Forward 15 Years

So from there, fast forward fifteen years to now, we have this company called Club Villamar and we rent out and manage, through our partners, more than 700 properties. And those properties are most of the time properties with private pools and with amazing seaview. Located within a couple of kilometers of the beach. And our focal point is, of course, the Costa Brava, north of Spain. The Costa Maresme, somewhat more South, including Barcelona, the Costa Dorada. And there we have over 700 properties.

XML Connections For Scale

We also work together with other people in other parts of Spain, and that is on XML-basis. So they deliver the houses and we deliver the bookings. That's where we have a partnership. And it's all time we've been growing and growing and growing the company and it's it's been going very well. (over 3500 villas offered on Club Villamar website)

As you know, from the from the vacation rental in Spain, it's going very well. So this it's a good market. Of course, I'm not doing this by myself. We have gathered through the years, this huge team of enthusiastic and motivated people. And I'm just a cog in the wheel. And in the end, I have something to do with marketing. Because we built everything ourselves from the ground up. We have very direct control and we have kept very direct control over our own distribution channels.

And that's something that that's quite unique nowadays. Thank you.

Map of Spain

How Do You Get Your Bookings? The Distribution Mix and Vacation Rental Listing Sites

Simon: Thank you, Rob. And this is a great introduction. And you can feel the passion about your business and what you have achieved and what you have done. I am actually a pleasure myself, too, to go on holidays with Club Villamar, and that is a long time ago before I even knew you and Ed. The two founders. And in the end, this is the reason why you are actually here today. That is that when we were looking for some consulting customers and I said to to my account manager, Nicolas in Spain, I want to work with Club Villamar. That's a great company and a great experience in one of your properties in Calpe, actually. And and here you are. And then when we contacted, you took like 24 hours for you to get back to us. Yes, let's have a conversation. And we're now having a great working relationship and we're happy that the Club Villamar is also using AJL Services. So.

You made an interesting point already, sort of gave the secrets away in terms of of your distribution mix, right? Because you you have a very mature business. We always differentiate between leisure and urban. Obviously, Urban has been hit super hard with these crises. It's a less mature business. Urban has more competition, lower margins. The leisure business has more seasonality is used to seasonality is used to variable costs as well. And also in generally has has also a more probably as on an average more direct bookings. But how is it in your particular case? How do you how does your distribution mix look like currently? What do you get from OTAs in terms of revenue and what you get from direct bookings?

90% Direct Bookings

Robin: From direct bookings, we have over 90 percent of our bookings and our turnover. We generate it ourselves. So it's our own marketing coming through our own channel and our own re-marketing on that and making them into repeat clients. And from the big OTAs, let's name them:, Airbnb and Homeaway in the space that we're in. And those generate less than 10 percent. And within these 10 percent, there is even some smaller agencies in local areas and other countries that also book with us. So into mix, we we're very much leaning towards the direct bookings.

Simon: Wow, that's super impressive. So does that mean you just don't like OTAs or does that mean you're just doing a simply better job? Because your argument could be, you know. The argument could be, hey, direct bookings are so much more expensive and, you know, these OTAs create so much demand. And then you can convert them or whatever. Or is it that? Are you making this comparison? Then is it more is it better for you to have these three bookings or could you do more without.

Robin: Yes, we could do more with OTAs. And it's it's it's a cost thing. Yes, absolutely. So you said: do you hate to the OTAs or do you do a better job? Well, we do do a better job. So what we're spending in the OTAs said on average about 15 percent fee. You look across the board of the bigger big OTAs and you put together the guest fee and the owner side. So we can do it a lot cheaper than that. Yes, that's one thing. But that's it. There's another thing that's a lot more important.

Simon: Well, could you share with us the cost of your conversion roughly on revenue?

Yeah, it would be half of that. And it kind of depends on what you see as as a marketing or a sales cost that you also want to get away. We have our own IT. Maybe you have to include that. It goes up a bit. Maybe you have to include a call center that we work with. Then we'll go up a bit. But we're significantly, significantly cheaper than then an OTA. And so we can do it at a lower price.

More Important Than Money

But this something that's even more important to me and it's that look, every every company has a sales funnel. And if you look at it still. So, no, it kind of looks like this. Then at the top, you have your potential client, your potential guest. And here at the bottom, you have people who actually become a guest of yours. OK.

100% Direct Bookings Example

Two models. One is the model is 100 percent direct bookings. So do you do everything ourselves? We do everything ourselves. That is almost the case with us with this funnel, we can choose from which channel I don't like, not general like OTAs, but other channels. Let´s me give me an example. An email marketing, Facebook marketing, Instagram marketing, paid marketing, Google marketing. All those marketing tools that you have to actually get people into your funnel and that funnel is our website. And on those websites, we can tweak a lot of things. We say, OK, let's change the terms and conditions. Let's change the algorithm. Let's change just whatever you think will help you get the most attention for your houses, but also with your profitability, which is also a big thing that you can talk about. Then you have your actual guests and those actual guests. You make sure that they come, that they're very happy. And then you have to a customer lifetime value.

So OK, with Club Villamar. We own this funnel. (more about funnels here) It's ours. Everything that happens in this funnel, people we put in and the guest we have in the end, we have direct control over. So there's a lot of easy tweaking that you can do to the best optimum results because this funnel wants to be wider and you want it to be like this and you have a better offer. OK, so this is the first case. This is the 100 percent booking yourself. And then with the other case, which is it's an extreme case. But let's let's do this.

Simon: Well, there are such extreme cases, Robin. Oh yeah.

Booking through OTAs Example

Robin: many of them. In my eyes it's an extreme case. I make maybe I'll follow up on that. But in they own the funnel, they choose where to get the people, they choose the algorithm, they choose the terms and conditions. They choose the re-marketing. They they choose maybe they they'll get the people to book again with your properties, but: Who knows? And because we have made mistakes in the past, because we have this funnel.

Homeaway Example

We also were with HomeAway. And back in the day, you had other products: pay per listing. You're just giving a lot of money. You have the top rankings. You've got a lot of inquiries. And we're doing over over 200 enquiries a day because we just put all our properties on that and it was great, we were converting like crazy and they changed their products. And all of a sudden, we've got less than 20 inquiries a day and not really bookings because they were in the beginning phase. It's just a company that just changing stuff. They were in the beginning phase of converting that. So all of a sudden we didn't have that. And that was really hurting our business.

But we were very lucky. It was just a part of the people coming into our funnel. OK. So again, too, if you only have one OTA, then the OTA has to funnel. So in the end, all you get is the clients, the guests, and you make them as happy as possible. But the the the influence that you have or your revenue is not so big.

And we started out this business as being our own business or rental business and not ´cleaning for our Airbnb business´. So looking at our own business: We want to be as independent as possible or at least have the possibilities to switch when some of the other partners does something that doesn't make sense

The Main OTAs for Leisure Vacation Rental

OTAs Change All The Time!

If you have been in the rental space for for some time, you know. And also at this time, you know that the OTAs are changing their products, rules, algorithms all the time. There's not a lot you can do. So the influence that you have is not so big. And want to have a lot of influence on the end results.

Simon: That's very impressive. It sounds like the ideal world in what you have built. And very complex as well. Thank you for being so detailed. But the next question would obviously be how on earth you structured it. I mean, you have three hundred marketing people working for you. I mean, this is we talked about costs as well, cost of conversion. I think we understand that you're trying to keep your customers in this particular funnel, which makes a ton of sense. But how do you actually, you know, what are your key resources and employees that are involved to actually make this happen?

The Big Marketing Mistake

Robin: Yeah, early on, I well, I think a lot of business owners with me. I made a big mistake. I thought I had to do everything on my own. So really, for marketing, for SEO search engine optimisation, I was I was building the link links myself. The Facebook marketing, I was doing it myself. Ads was really it was crazy. It's Google, Google AdWords. It's not called Adwords anymore. But if you've been in the module recently, everything changes every year. It's just incredible. Also with the SEO, the search engine optimisation. Well, and we got slapped with all the whole animal kingdom, the penguin, the panda, the hummingbird.

So every time we learn everything ourselves again. But that really was a mistake. And I think that's that's that's part of the growth cycle that you're in. So we had to hire our professionals, find out there's companies that that's no love more about it. And also, I have a lot more focus. Because we're running a complete company, not only a marketing thing. So we're hiring a lot of people. But just agency base and just it reminds me of a billboard I saw in New Zealand a couple of years ago. And it was about plumbing and construction companies that it says:

If you think it's expensive to work with professionals, try hiring an amateur

No Idea

That's why we're also working with you (AJL Consulting). Work with professionals because you want to. You just want the best results. And that's it. As what we are, what we do is all the thing that help is that we learned so much about marketing ourselves. So if we're looking at a company, we say, OK, it's if you're not measuring your return on ad-spend, if you're not doing re-marketing, if you're not doing all those detail points, if you're not surprising me with what you know, then then maybe you're not a good fit.

And fortunately, through the years and that's falling and getting up, you get a lot of good people around you.

Simon: You talked a lot about AdWords and Google as well, but it's still there are still others that you're competing with. And you know, a lot of the thesis out there in the market has been until now at least if you feel like we can look at different markets. If you look at the US, the US property managed to get about 80 percent of their demand through OTAs, right. In Europe the larger and the more mature market, the businesses are still around 50, 60 percent direct, but it's coming down heavily and the average in Europe is about 40 to 30 percent. This direct. Your double that and the argument is, ´Hey, we can't compete with the OTAs.´

Well, you obviously can because, you know, we always hear these massive numbers that Expedia and booking all come spending 10 million a year on on Google ads. And you seem to be able to navigate very well with 90 percent direct bookings.

¨Spend Milions On Marking And Not Make A Profit´

Robin: They are, yeah, it is. It is going very well. I can tell you it's of course, it's not easy. We're not investor backed. It's our own money. We don't have hundreds of millions to throw around on the marketing and not not even in some cases, not even make a profit in a year. So we don't have the luxury of doing that. But if you're if you're smart and you use everything and look at your complete funnel, then there are still ways that you that you can make it work, that you can't be independent.

And I think the big part of the drive is that we're not only looking at costs, but also at our independency. As always, if we just don't want to be, I said this before, we don't want to rely too heavily on other people's companies because they are other people's companies. They do have an interest of their own.

OTAs And Cancellations

Simon: Now, going further and keeping on sort of the OTA discussion, Robin, is that. The OTAs have not made many friends with this with this crisis as well when we talk about cancellations. And, you know, can you tell us what did their friends you're seeing between direct bookings and the ones who came from third parties in relation to cancellation and how they're handled as well.

Robin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There is a difference, at least there's already a difference in in communication. Look, if you if you have your reservation with, let's say Airbnb, you just have your app, you say, I want to cancel now you present the button and we get an email setup. We refunded all the money. We have our direct bookings then go another way that this a lot more communication at this moment.

We feel a responsibility to the guest, but also to our home owners and of course, to the people who work with us. And that that's with our direct bookings, we tend to have a lot more communication because these people actually wanted to go on a holiday and we know they're going on holiday. It's good for them. They're just scared at the moment, which I can fully understand because the whole world is in turmoil. And so what we offer is that we say, OK, for that same house. Maybe we can reschedule. And there's a lot more work to discuss. More optimized. And he say, okay, well, let's get you a booking to the end of the year or even through to the next year so that there is a difference in communication.

But I have to say that and because we only have 10 percent of OTAs and it is pre-season bookings that we're talking about now, mainly in this period. And that's not a huge volume. That is it's very hard to see what's in the end. The effect will be the difference between only 10 percent over not so many bookings and the other 90 percent off. Also not a big volume. So it can go either away, but the communication feels different.

To Direct Channel….Or Not?

Simon: Now, absolutely. I see that very, very clearly as well, and an interesting, too, that poking a little bit about the future as well as like a lot of the what has been happening, especially related to cancellations, is now also triggering a huge direct booking discussion. Obviously, that's the reason why I want to put this session on, because you already there. But a lot of people, they want to get there now because they realize, you know, the vulnerability of this business. Number one. And number two, realizing that oxygen equals cash and oxygen equals life. And I think that's something become clearer and clearer and clearer. So a lot of our customers and then a lot of guys who were in an audience today, they're thinking about a how do I get there in terms of direct booking. So if you could advise the property manager. That he's looking to invest more into a direct channel. What what would it be? What would you advise them?

Robin: Yeah, but I know that there's this people who do will do perfectly well with with with OTAs at this moment and in the last years and let's be honest, the last year for vacation rental has been amazing and people have been out the road with or without the ice.

Why Did You Build This Company?

But I'd like to say just look at yourself in the mirror and think of why you started this company in the first place. Because if it's because I want to do that: The key handling and cleaning for Airbnb or for Homeaway. Okay, perfect. You can be perfectly happy with that. If it's I want to build my own business and have control over that business and be independent. Oh, wow. Maybe you did. Maybe the easy way. It only leads to regret. Maybe the easy way is not the way to go. Maybe you have to build your own genuine to put effort into it. And is it is it the easy way? No. No, it's not. But the payoff will be the biggest in the end. Yes. And certainly in a matter of control. So I would say, yeah, do it

Simon: . You just mentioned the word control and that during these massive challenges, you also need to certain control over your direct bookings. Now, how is the control of your own booking helping you to navigate right now through Covid 19?

Robin: Very good. The first example that a view is a cancellation that we're having because we actually had to cancel because people cannot arrive at this crazy situation nobody thought would ever happen. So that example I already gave, but also the communication that we had for the guests who are arriving in, let's say to lay off all of us is just to say, OK, you make the second payment, you make it later, they'll make it. Now, just when you will see what's somewhat more secure.

The things we changed at Club Villamar

So you have a lot and the Covid was going off it when it when it was kicking up. We said, OK, maybe we have to make a new product, an insurance that we do. We can sell that people actually get the money back once it was out to cancel because of co-pay. Somebody get sick or dashed over restrictions. And that was implemented within 24 hours. We sort of made. So it's just that the control that you have in this in this time is just a lot better. And it isn't. Is it the right solution? No. But this year, too. Or maybe not. But at least you have the feeling. OK. I can actually do something about the situation. And that's just that gives me a lot of peace of mind.

Simon: Absolutely. And I have to say, personally, I was super impressed by speed of execution. Since I'm on your newsletter address list, as well as a former customer and I received that document I immediately wrote to make list and say these guys are not mucking around. They already got the insurance. And and and this was a lot of respect for that. I mean, this really shows that they have control. Whatever you had left, as you pointed out, in terms of control. You are you are utilizing to the max. So what he said non-generic bookings, very amazing. Organized the marketing department, all your channels keeping control over it. How does that translate into repeat customers? I mean, this is always a big argument. It's part of the customer lifetime value. You know, because the repeat rates and vacation rental traditionally have come down quite substantially. I mean, some winter destinations, you had like 50, 60 percent repeat rates every year. Same place booking over and over. Now people want choice and go to different places. How does that translate to Club Villamar?

Repeat bookers: How is it affected?

Robin: Yeah, it is absolutely a factor, which is again, it's a bit hard to measure because course we're talking about a percentage of repeat bookings on a small percentage, although we have actually of OTAs. So maybe someone or somebody who has a not a mix would be better to give an answer answer to that, but it would be very logical. Look, if we get an Airbnb booking we we have to or I'm way I think is what we actually have it with Homeaway too, to ask the clients for their own email address so we can have direct communication with them. The channels for repeat booking the OTAs also have them in place. They also have a plan for that. They also say, OK, I'm going to send you what knows about this, about to the properties on the Costa Brava. And it's not necessarily my property. So it's only logical that that would easily book with Airbnb again.

Even though we did the majority of the work. It's not to bash on the OTAs, not at all. But if you look at the yourself, just imagine yourself that you are spending time with your with your kids in the pool of a house. And then how big of the pleasure that you have, was the website where you booked. Look, these guys are not they're not cutting grass. They're not they're coming to clean your pool. They're not making sure that you have a nice, warm welcome. They're not there for you 24 hours a day when you're when you're at the house. All these things, they are there.

But let's talk about the homeowner. They know that the mortgage that they have to pay. It's just a service that they provide. So am I going back to that in the repeat? Because it's hard to measure, but I I'm pretty sure that we do better ourselves and the guest that we had. So from. OK, let's let's be honest. It's also that they are the Airbnb clients. For them, we are just the key handlers, which makes it a lot easier for Airbnb to convince them to book again.

Reviews: The Ultimate Feedback Loop

Simon: So talking about booking again, I mean talking about the little elements or the gold nuggets that are important for marketing, we talk about repeat clients. We talked about overall your marketing efforts and other won gold nugget, I guess, reviews. Right. I mean, everybody talks about how important reviews are. First of all, you need to deliver a good experience before you actually can get good reviews. So we are assuming you're doing everything possible for yourself on your product together with your partners, that that product is absolutely up to standards. You're focusing on pools with pool. So you have clear product standards, but the reviews are very important. What's your what do you do with reviews and how do you manage them? And then what is your feedback rate for direct bookings? Yeah.

Robin: Now, that's also an important point that you are there to addressing. Everybody who has been a client with us gets an invitation to to make review when they're going to review the website to communication with us, the actual arrival, the cleaning itself. Oh, a whole bunch of things that we have a quite a high repeat or sending in rate of that. That's 32 percent as we get it. So we'll get a lot of a lot of feedback.

That's feedback always is read immediately. Of course, that is unless something's wrong while people are at the house. We have all other feedback loop for that. That's outside that. You don't have to wait until you're actually at home. And then we get the reviews and we always look at what's actionable and we really put an action on it because it's if there's a person who said, okay. Just about anything. The best one, not the good. This is something that we can chase for for forthcoming clients and we can change it on very short notice. So that's that's our own quality, look. It's just that if there's reviews on other platforms, I also read them. But it's not the communication is not so direct. It's just it takes a lot more time. And they really feel like a client of another platform. And if you if you have the reviews there, let's say it's only stars.

Where Do You Want Your Reviews?

Let's say that you put a really a lot of energy into becoming a super host on Airbnb, which is great, great for your rankings and you're a super host. But if Airbnb all of the sudden is not flavour of the month anymore, but because of any decision, you have a lot of good reviews here. But now you have to concentrate on, where you have zero reviews and you will not really score in the algorithm. Who are you helping at at the moment? And yeah, we can see where you get to reviews.

Where do you show your reviews?

Simon: Yeah, absolutely. So talking about the direct channel. Like you just said, make them on your direct channel. And besides besides sales, what other advantage does it have to have its own direct channel as well?

Robin: Yeah, the control I took out back to the control. And that's that's just very, very wide. It's just that you're in control of your your own your own company and the actual Independence Day. So that's it.

What Value Do You Provide For Your Owners?

Simon: How does that how does that how important is the owner in this? Is this an argument that an owner says, hey, this is cool? My my agency that I'm working with is generating 90 percent Direct booking. So he has a bigger peace of mind. They know their customers that know the type of their customers. They don't get some stag parties into their houses or some crazy stuff that comes through all the channels. Would that be a good argument as well?

Robin: Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely a good argument. What's what's very important for a home owner is that he gets paid. The second thing is that you don't hold that you don't ruin his house. And we have to our partners, we have a very good relation with our with our home owner. Which means that and also because we've been doing this ourselves. We also know some of the homeowners still when we know that you, the kids and everything and they re in the house. And we we've signed the first contracts as we we feel that responsibility to our owners and the owners feel that responsibility back. And through our partners, we actually have feet on the ground when things don't go so well that it can actually call somebody who comes by. And of course, the OTA is not providing that. There's also service that we still know.

How About Technology?

Simon: That's definitely clear. Oh, yeah. Well, no, They will stay either in San Francisco or in Amsterdam. That's for sure. So looking at the time, I quickly want to touch that topic of technology. I mean, this sounds super complex. What you're doing with that, with all these different multi-channels, you're you're you're working with a direct newsletters, emails, et cetera, et cetera. What kind of technology you used to handle that or how it should be understand how your tech stack is looking like.

Robin: Yeah, well well we from beginning it was really easy because in 2003 there was no choice. There was no WordPress or Avantio or Kigo. And every custom and custom, every platform that's just easy to do to use. It wasn't there we had to build ourselves. So we built it and it's bigger, bigger, bigger. And I can bore you with a lot of technical details that it has something to do with music. It was built in symphony, or I don't know what. I'm glad that the IT guys know. They know all of that and make sure that everything runs perfectly.

Speed Of IT Implementation

But the most important thing for us as a company is that everything is implemented very quickly. So once we think of it and as we connect with like most of the OTAs that we connect with, we have our own API, our own connection. And so, sure, it's a pain because you have to update it all the time. There's something I didn't think of to begin with that it actually needs maintenance. But just also that the partners with which we work on the Costa Blanca, I had to South on the part of Spain, we just to get their feed connected to our platform and all of the sudden without alignment, which I call we built everything ourselves, which again makes us like in independent. It's a huge thing that you're building. But there's a there's a value in that.

Simon: Summarizing that you want to control it. So, you know, you guys control the technology. You want to have control over your guests.

Robin: I mean, I sound like all of a sudden as I'm like a control freak, really, I'm not I'm not that bad. It's just independence is a thing for me. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon: No, absolutely. I get that. And I wouldn't I would never allowed to say that in the negative sense. I mean, you have it. You have a military background, so you know. So let's wrap this up quickly, you know this. Be great. Have a great conversation. Extreme know how. Please. Also to the audience. Don't forget to ask questions which we will summarise and come back on a separate session so we can address some of your questions that you might have.

Google Into The Travel Space

We've talked a lot about Google, but we haven't talked about Google in so far that they they've been. They want to go closer to the consumer as well. Right. We've seen them, though, there has been products from Google to sort of disrupt distribution landscape and and and and go closer to the consumer and then sort of cutting out the OTAs. Is that something you guys are worried about? Is that is that a threat to Club Villamar going forward?

Robin: No. To be honest, not really. Look, we're spending a lot of money on Google anyway, which and we would just see as he out goes in The main opportunity that I see is something like a compare tool, which you can say, OK, this is an object which could find it. At this price you could find it. There is this price at this price and maybe who knows, they'll have a commission model around it. I don't know where it´s going.

But if it happens again, it's good to have your own marketing in place. That's your own channel that's actually in there. Otherwise, you're only very much depended on if an Airbnb is in that mix or we'll be able to pay for that mix or we'll be willing to pay for that mix. So we'll just see where it to where it goes. We're not scared easily. We're a very strong company.

Simon: Wow. Lots of positive energy. We I think we all needed out there in the industry right now. And with that, I really would like to to wrap this up in preparation of our conversation today. You you put forward a really nice quote from Robin Coenen, the CMO of Club Villamar and you said:

He Who Has The Beds, Has The Power

Robin Coenen

And on that note, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to thank Robin for being with us today and giving us some great insights from Club Villamar. If you have any questions, comment online to the chat function and we'll get back to you. Robin, thank you so much. Stay. Well, stay. Thanks to you.

Robin: Thanks for having me. Simon, it was a pleasure. Thank you. I speak to you soon. Take care. Bye bye.

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